Everything you need: https://itazuraneko.neocities.org/
Be sure to check out the treasure box in the library, as it has no end of resources for learning the language.
Previous thread: >>8897
To start things off, I recently tried to practise my Japanese by translating a Kinmoza/Gochiusa doujin called Pyon Pyon Parade. I got stuck. Would anyone be able to correct my mistakes so that I can finish typesetting it? I've marked things I am especially unsure of with red lines, but I can't guarantee that the unmarked text is free of errors.
Pyon Pyon Parade in the original Japanese: https://e-hentai.org/g/1298090/e865380d53/
a , v have threads also. Ether way don't get discouraged people. You will make it.Eventually.
Just dont do memes
This may or may not be of interest to you
It may be better than what OP did, but anything Goggledanon does shouldn't be trusted as a guideline or otherwise as they commonly have translation errors and less frequently other issues as well. In general I wouldn't recommend relying on translations too much as that's just often the case.
Strongly suggest you not translate for practice as it's quite inefficient for study and without someone good to comb through it, just results in a low-quality end product. In fact, Goggledanon is a great example of the inefficiency of translation as a practice method. They've been churning out shitty translations for a few years and I believe it's only fairly recent that their TL accuracy has picked up to a not completely awful level. I realize it's probably something you have an interest in, but you can't be a good translator until you've gotten a good grasp of the language.
Thanks for the resource. It may be misguided, but I didn't want to have yet another unfinished project under my belt, so I've finished and uploaded the translation: https://e-hentai.org/g/1349937/1a22891fdf/
>anything Goggledanon does shouldn't be trusted as a guideline or otherwise
>It may be better than what OP did
Ouch. Though I asked for it, attempting this at the skill level I'm at.
I'll keep in mind what you said about translating being a bad method for learning. It seems counterintuitive to me, like being told that doing math problems is an inefficient way of learning math. Is it because time spent translating is time not spent reading and comprehending more material? Is breadth more important than depth in this context?
>Is it because time spent translating is time not spent reading and comprehending more material
Pretty much, yeah. In the spent thinking of the translation and typing it, you may be able read another 3-5+ lines, assuming you aren't taking your time with the translation and there's no intensive lookup needed to comprehend. In time that's entire books that others will have over you for time spent. One good thing about translation is you can get feedback on it, but many people will just address the translation and not actually explain things for your comprehension. You can just ask about specific sentences around places like here instead of forcing yourself to try translate and word them without proper understanding to quicken the process. I would have addressed your red marked lines, but I've been a bit strapped for time. And that's another thing, a lot of people don't want to check over full chapters for others, so you're probably less likely to get that feedback you want.
>Thanks for the resource.
You're welcome but, did you understand exactly where you went wrong in your translation and maybe even why you went wrong after looking through goggled anon's version? I ask because it looks like you still have spots that change the meaning of the dialogue a lot.
Something else to think about: Did you find any spots where goggled anon mistranslated something? (hint: two on page 8, one on 11)
>I'll keep in mind what you said about translating being a bad method for learning. It seems counterintuitive to me, like being told that doing math problems is an inefficient way of learning math.
Don't make the same mistake I've made for two years now. I can tell you from experience that translating is a massive waste of time and you're only going to be able to learn so much from doing it. We're more or less at the same level, you and I, but I could've been working my way through N2 level material by now if I hadn't pissed my time away attempting to translate shit. Even now, I'm unable to fix a few mistranslations in things I've released over two fucking years ago because I wasted my time doing random TLs as "practice" instead of actually improving my japanese.
Typesetting it before getting your script QC'd was also a mistake. Typesetting it like that is time wasted because a) you're not learning anything while you do it, b) it takes much longer than writing the translation and c) you could be typesetting something that's completely wrong. It would have been a waste if no one replied to you.
>spots where goggled anon mistranslated something? (hint: two on page 8, one on 11)
Don't forget some on pages 6, 7, 9, another on 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, and 19. Late 2018 date on the pastebin, if memory serves he's probably coming up on 5 years translating now at the time of doing this one.
You could use 気持ち悪い to describe feeling sick, but also a feeling of disgust about something gross or disturbing.
Chino is the one who "knows" ventriloquism. Karen says, "you know ventriloquism, right? (Give it a go)" as she hands dolls to Chino. Other than the context, the ね gives this away. In using it, she's seeking affirmation about what's said prior.
This is often how Japanese indicate the way their name is spelled. She's giving the kanji for them, with a sounds strong, yeah? Strong impression, eh? に can be a way to list things, particularly that follow after one another or go together in some form. 朝飯は白飯に味噌汁に限るな. Nothing like white rice and miso soup for breakfast, for another example.
Doesn't pertain to Aya, she's pretty much saying there's no fighting involved. Nobody's fighting anything.
Not necessarily house. Came to our place, our cafe, our world ごちうさ.
They're having her change into (their) uniform. It's on their request that she's changing.
Can mean discomfort but in this case it means she fits right in; she's not out of place (because she's Rize 2.0 visually.)
(The clothing) really suits her.
People are already dubious about the sort of shop they are as things are, what with those delicious bunny maid looking uniforms, so there's no need for that sort of customer interaction.
A guest (Sharo)
Fine the way things are; fine being called 綾ちゃん. She doesn't really feel the need for a nickname.
Must be something about the person being referenced, but I'm not familiar. Guessing it's the listing usage of に I mentioned earlier. "At the end, a ぺ and (a) ♪."
I'm going to leave off there to do other things.
I see, makes sense.
>You're welcome but, did you understand exactly where you went wrong in your translation and maybe even why you went wrong after looking through goggled anon's version?
The following is not an exhaustive list.
- Shino in Gochiusa 2, panel 3. Original text is モフモフですか？ I wrote "Isn't it fluffy?", replaced it with Goggledanon's "Want to snuggle it?". I thought there that モフモフ was an adjective instead of a verb. It makes more sense as a verb considering the next thing Chino says, and especially considering the context of the encounter being a rehash of Cocoa's first meeting with Chino.
- Cocoa in Kinmoza, panel 3. Original text is アリスといううさぎがいますよ. I wrote "Alice is basically a rabbit", replaced it with Goggledanon's "there's a rabbit named Alice.". This was because I misinterpreted と as a non-literal quote marker (like in set phrases とする , ということは) instead of like literal quotes around Alice's name. This was because of poor reading comprehension.
- Honoka in Live Live!?, the title that I misinterpreted as Love Rival. Yeah, I completely dropped the ball on that one, was too confident in a quick guess of the title.
>Did you find any spots where goggled anon mistranslated something?
Page 8 (according to pastebin), Pretty sure "Disrupting the peace is bad!" is a mistranslation and my "With no discomfort!" is better. But as >>81046 says, there are even better translations available. Not sure what the second mistake is. Page 11, Goggledanon's "Shimazaki West" seems to be a literal translation of the title but the title and the "Ayappe" nickname is a reference to a radio show called Suzaki Nishi. In Chiya vs Shino (page 18) Goggledanon also just spells out 大手 as "oote", which is even less informative than even a literal translation like "big hand".
Thanks for the detail anon. Consider my lessons learnt about not trying to learn through translating, and not translating until my skill is much higher.
Another anon butting in.
My goal with learning nip is precisely to translate wanted manga. I've read some material on grammar, more than I've been using so far as a matter of fact. And then jumped into translation with the help of a dictionary. I'm most likely never gonna use it for IRL purposes, sadly. But I'm still curious as to what would be considered "good" practicing.
I often stumble on the same words/kanji that I've seen before, but have a hard time memorizing. So I'm thinking about starting daily kanji radical studying (to help on memorizing, the few kanji that I know best are the ones I looked up in depth on Kanji Study) and later on simply memorizing words by repetition. How's that?
I'd recommend using Anki for studying if you're not already. There are premade vocab decks, or you can just make your own for words you have trouble with. For kanji, I'd recommend the book Remembering the Kanji (which was included in a previous OP link but I didn't see it in this one). I've been steadily following that using a custom Anki deck and am almost at the 1000 mark.
I think that reading while looking up things you don't know is just about the best practice there is once you're able to handle it. Doesn't help your listening skills much unless it's a voiced VN or something, but nevertheless. Radicals are good, especially if you struggle with kanji recognition or differentiation. Writing can help too if you have an especially difficult time. It's natural that you won't remember everything after seeing them a couple times though. Sometimes there's just those words that will take seeing it 8+ times in different contexts before they really stick. I would, however, suggest not putting words off until later for kanji's sake. Not only should it typically be easier to learn them together, but it also gives you a better capacity to study by allowing you to start reading things and using Japanese resources. You can't do much with just kanji, after all. It's much more sensible to take a general approach than to focus specific areas of the language.
How do I interpret the grammatical structure ことは (listed in A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar)?
話すことは話します = "Someone does talk"
高かったことは高かったです = "Something was expensive"
"As for talking, (subject) talks." could be a more literal translation of the first one. I can how it works as an intensifier of sorts but it still feels like an odd sentence structure to me with no easy analogy to English. Is that just what it is and I have to get used to it?
I haven't seen the source anime of that "Tanoshii things are tanoshii" meme, so I wonder if this sentence structure is what was used in the original Japanese?
And here's a quick go-through of the rest. I could have overlooked a couple things as I did ignore what I figured was probably just wording issues. Hope my explanations are of help.
You needlessly add dessert which isn't mentioned. Both items are sweet foods. Also with とか she's just listing examples of what she'd like to eat and as such considering to order. That is, she's not ordering multiple things, but simply saying what she's considering.
This may be just be a matter of wording, not your understanding, but it should specifically be that the menu needs a Japanese translation. Otherwise it could be interpreted that Alice's Japanese is insufficient, whereas it's actually Chiya's menu that is indecipherable. Like, the menu lists "Twilight ocean" with no further explanation, for example.
Verb form of tsukkomi.
The entire clause きんモザ-言っていた is acting as a descriptor for 青山さん. Aoyama-san who at some point in time had gone to the Kinmoza world. The いつの間にか is more of a during an undisclosed period of time sort of meaning as opposed to what you had in the context. She had gone and come before we the reader had any knowledge of it, not the other characters.
Typo for 王手 which is essentially "check."
してみる = try to ~. かな in this context is self-questioning. She's wondering to herself if maybe she should try going blonde.
かぶる here means they resemble one another, there's overlap there.
She presents the bunny as the topic in a questioning tone, there's not need to go the extra step and say, what's the deal with it.
子 is often used to refer to animals irrespective of sex. 平気 probably refers to how well she sits on Chino's head just as Tippi usually does.
Swapping rabbits with Gochiusa for a day. ことになる is pretty much just a way of describing that as the outcome of some course of events. It ended up that ~, It was or we decided as such that.
It's sad, I'll be lonely being separated from Alice.
何か here means "for some reason" and つい means she can't help but to; she just reflexively calls her onee-chan without thinking.
>Hope my explanations are of help.
Very much so. If I had known that my translation was so error-filled then I wouldn't have attempted it.
Sometimes while translating I know that there's something in the original Japanese not clear to me but most of these (and in >>81046 ) were unknown unknowns. Quite a humbling experience.
Tae Kim got taken off the app store. Anybody got a link to an APK or a recommendation for a good starting grammar app?
Don't use apps they are pointless. Just speedread taekim's website. You can useit as a reference later.
Isn't there a pdf version of his website somewhere? You can have that and crtr+f what you are looking for in the document.
Is there a way for a NEET to use a comprehensible based input method to learn Japanese? Most of what I've read suggests classes and finding people to practice with. Is there a way that's based more on children's shows and shadowing?
*comprehensible input based
Incidentally the guide in the OP is fairly tailored toward developing basic literacy so that you can then pursue a heavily input-based learning approach.
Is this for the end goal of speaking to Japanese people and/or going to Japan? Making sense of the language in the flesh is a lot harder than in instructional videos and such where they speak slowly and avoid using weird idioms. Check out a radio show like Suzaki Nishi and see how they talk fast and over each other all the time. Cramming vocabulary and kanji with anki and reading at your own pace will take you some of the way but won't prepare you with all that you need for that goal. But if your goal is merely being able to read the language and perhaps write a few things, then I think internet study would suffice.
>Is there a way that's based more on children's shows and shadowing?
You might be interested in watching anime with Japanese subtitles. You can download subtitles for many shows from http://www.kitsunekko.net/ but you may have to re-time them yourself.
i believe the pdf you're speaking of is linked somewhere within the neocities resource, but the .html version is readily available there as well
Good, because that's what iIve been doing. Got the hiragana down. Going to learn katakana, then hit up the grammar guide and grind the anki deck. The problem is, active studying gives shit retention, hence spaced repetition programs like anki that try to brute force it in your head. Babies don't learn language this way, and in actuality, neither do adults. Those people that know a shitload of languages? They don't sit down and study grammar. US native English speakers don't start studying grammar like that until we're older. I think the first time I remember seriously studying grammar was the sixth grade, long after I became fluent in English. Ideally I'd find a native Japanese speaker and have them spend time with me and teach me like they would a baby. They'd explain things to me. Draw simple pictures for me, and help me draw simple pictures and tell stories and keep building upon that.
Unless I can find a native Japanese speaker that works nights in my city, I'm pretty much fucked. I'm going to have to get a base in the shitty old fashioned way, and then start watching Japanese pre-schooler shows as soon as possible.
>You might be interested in watching anime with Japanese subtitles.
That's one of the best forms of comprehensible input. I forget the exact numbers, but watching with subtitles in a language you understand gives 0% retension. No subtitles is something like 5%, and target language audio with target language subtitles is 17%. The thing is, it either has to be very simplistic if you're a total noob, or you have to know part of the language so you can use context to work out what you don't know.
There's probably more typos.
As an adult with fluent understanding of at least one language, grammar study will undoubtedly benefit you greatly. Babies take years to reach language ability of a toddler and toddlers years to reach the level of a high-schooler and you can easily surpass that by leaps using the tools and knowledge you have at hand. VNs can also be a good tool for the beginner, similar to subtitled shows but often with easier options for audio playback and more exposure to written styles of the language in addition to conversational. Possibly a slightly higher entry barrier though as a result.
If you want to spend 3 years of study until you're able to converse at the level of a 3-year-old, then by all means follow your shitty strategy.
If you want to actually learn the language, however, you need to study grammar.
>those people who know a shitload of languages don't sit down and study grammar
is a lie. Anyone who knows multiple languages has studied grammar, unless they learned it naturally growing up, in which case, again, it took them far longer than it would take an adult to sit down and study vocabulary and grammar, and then put them together in live practice.
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
It's not a lie. This is the method people use to become fluent in level 5 languages (of which Japanese is one example) in only a year. It's the difference between learning and acquiring. Research has shown that acquisition through comprehensible input is orders of magnitude more efficient and effective than studying grammar.
YouTube related is babbys first intro to comprehensible input and acquisition, and even uses Japanese as it's example.
Studying grammar and vocabulary combined with listening/speaking/reading/writing practice which puts what you study into practice is still faster and more efficient.
Some dumb nigger on jewtube going on about how "it's all input" doesn't make it true.
You'll see soon enough, though; when you follow such a shitty method and end up struggling far longer and harder than you would've if you accepted that it's a challenging thing to do and that there are no easy, magical shortcuts.
There's nothing magical about it. It's just working with the brain instead of against it. This one video is not the totality of information on the matter. It's what polyglots prefer for efficiency. This is knowledge gained from research. Next you'll be telling me the Earth is flat.
Except solely focusing on immersion and input without studying grammar at all is NOT the preferred method of language learning for multilingua people, you dumbass.
Working 'with your brain' consists of recognizing that the brains of adults and children are different, and thus, the same method which teaches children languages over the course of many years can be replaced with a superior method of actually studying the grammar of the language you're learning with your adult brain.
>It's what polyglots prefer for efficiency
>Citations: My Ass
How do you know I'm not a really horny and we'll spoken second grader?
As for sources, I didn't come here to debate, I came here to find comprehensible input. It doesn't matter, since I'm stuck doing things the harder way anyway.
Here is a waifu of truce.
This. Why do you guys learn difficult language like Japanese when you can learn the more easier languages like Chinese? It is easier in every sense except for pronunciation.
I learn it because it is hard.
That makes me hard.
What the fuck is that Chicken scratch. I can only understand "Chinese people" there.
It is the hardest. Even Arabic is easier than this.
Holy fuck trying to get anki installed has been a shore. I run Gentoo without systemd nor freedesktop garbage like polkit, consolekit, and dbus. So first I just try the procompiled linux binary because it's by far the easiest. It doesn't work because it requires systemd cancer. So then I try to compile it from the tarball they provide, but shit's all fucked. Next I think, "Just see if it's in the repo and emerge it you dumb fuck." I emerge it and it's some ancient beta test version that won't work with up to date dependencies. So I get cracking and make sure everything is in order, and try the tarball again. This time it installs perfectly, but when I run it, it throws all sorts of errors. I go to their forum and they're like, "fuck off, we don't support anything but the precompiled binary." So now I'm installing wine, which is a saga of it's own when you aren't willing to use freedesktop garbage and poetteringware. Hopefully I can run the windows precompiled binary under wine.
Pray for me, Anon.
Why would you ever bother to learn an insectoid language that is so simplistic and mechanical that it can be 100% accurately translated by google translate? Waste of time.
Learn in context, folks. What you study will be reinforced by what you consume. There is no faster way to cement what you've studied than to actually hear/read it used in context by a native speaker.
Otherwise you end up getting a tattoo of 七輪。
Why not? Only a retard would try to waste his time learning an autistic language that he will never achieve native level and even the natives forget how to write in their old age.
>Learn in context, folks.
You mean anime? There is plenty of Chinese anime if you want to learn.
So, I want to get this straight. According to the guide, I should learn the kana, then start grinding the Core2k/6k anki deck, then read the tae kim grammar guide, then I can start reading babby's first Japanese?
The kana will take a few days to a few weeks. Knock that out first. The Core will take years so you want to be doing both in studying grammar from books or guides and vocabulary from anki at the same time. Books or guides on grammar will reinforce words as they use vocabulary in context to teach you the grammar. It will teach you how to read things mainly and not what to say. Anki will complete your vocabulary so you know what to say. You want to study vocabulary every day like a religion and spend your free studying time reading up on grammar. As you get better at vocabulary switch those priorities. This phase is the bulk of the work and will take a long time but will make you proficient in the language enough to read manga, understand anime without subtitles, and play whatever pokemans game they shit out next year. Then there's listening practice which will teach you how to say things. That's a bit more advanced and you should only look into that if you're planning on going to Japan to speak to natives even though they'll probably try to talk English to you anyways.
I did hiragana last weekend, and I'm doing katakana this weekend. Heisig makes it very easy. I've been drilling the hiragana every day. I'm almost done with the katakana, but I've got to hit the sack. Once I'm done, I'll drill those too.
Where does RTK fit into all of this?
RTK is just one of many ways to study the kanji. The Core is going to be a better deck for you than RTK as it has actual words rather than isolated kanji. Kanji isn't words by themselves most of the time. If an isolated kanji is a word then Core will teach you it but it's more likely to have kana at the end or more kanji denoting which word the kanji is supposed to mean. Studying kanji isolated is a pretty big waste of time and will confuse you when you go to study the actual words. It will make studying vocabulary only slightly easier but at the cost of a whole shit load of time that you could have been skipping that step and studying words and not kanji. An example: 姦 in isolated study will say it means noisy or rape depending on the guide or deck. It gets a lot of shit by the Western world because it's just basically three female symbols stacked on each other. So you see fags on twitter or facebook saying "Look how wacky/deplorable Japanese is!" The problem is that kanji doesn't mean shit by itself. You have to add other kanji or kana to it to make it mean those things. It's the equivalent of Ariana Grande grandstanding on what Japanese words mean when she has a tattoo of "charcoal brazier" in Japanese on her hand.
For a quick more neutral take on kanji study, it's not really a waste of time, but not always a necessity either. People can learn to recognize them well over time simply by learning vocabulary and the like but many others will struggle to do so and can benefit through some additional study on the side. You can make up much of the time spent because it should become easier to learn vocabulary because you can use that knowledge for mnemonics and such, and will be quicker because that's one part of new vocabulary to get used to. It may be the quicker method for some who would otherwise have difficulty. Either way of learning is fine, the most important thing is to not ignore other parts of the language in favor of solely studying kanji. I've done both and prefer putting in that little extra work, myself.
As far as the actual meanings of characters, it can be helpful as mentioned for mnemonics, but also for made-up words, kanji-based puns and stuff like that. Sometimes certain readings will have different meanings for the same kanji, even. Most English resources don't really give you an exhaustive description of their meaning/s though, so most people will just learn a "keyword" for characters, a word generally representing it's most common meaning. It's nice, but not necessary, and probably something you could pick up on through repeated exposure as with kanji through vocabulary.
>Studying kanji isolated is a pretty big waste of time and will confuse you when you go to study the actual words
The opposite of my experience. I tried grinding vocabulary and it just started getting harder and harder about 1000 words in because I was forgetting the kanji or not noticing minor differences in kanji. Then I started progressing through RTK and had a much easier time remembering the vocabulary. I should have just done isolated kanji study first.
I do think people need to try various methods of studying to find out what works best for them. Instead of following some rote process, serious study requires finding out which methods stick in your head and which don't.
Personally I hated isolated kanji study and never had it "stick" but if it works for you that's all that really matters.
I also personally have a much easier time remembering vocab after learning the kanji involved using RTK. I also just enjoy going through the book because I find writing them out satisfying and it gives me more of a class style feeling of progress.
Call me contrarian but I just can't imagine years wasted learning 2300 kanji by themselves without readings with maybe but most of the time not a correct meaning just to get the shape down in your head before moving on to actually studying the Core to learn the actual meanings and readings when you could have just studied the Core. I mean if that's how it works with your brain do whatever works but it is a waste of time for sure. If it's a shape thing then just study the 200 radicals until you can pick apart a kanji by its pieces and it will take a week or two.
Not sure if it's what they're doing, but if studying kanji you definitely should be learning them with readings via also learning vocabulary. Doing kanji and only kanji isn't optimal. You can't use the language if you only know kanji and you want to be able to use it asap. Studying kanji really isn't some big time investment, if you do it right. You learn the radicals, I preferred an as you go approach. Look up the meaning/keyword. If just pulling a sole kanji from a list, find and learn a word using it. Not necessary if learning it with a new word. Maybe write it if that's your thing. Maybe give the readings a quick look, seeing which are on/kun. Review as necessary and done. It must take me less than a minute (albeit slightly longer when I was a beginner) to go over a character initially and maybe another couple minutes in review over the next few months, if I choose to put it into Anki. All for vastly increased recognition rate. If I don't bother with that, I'll usually start to recognize it after looking it up 5-10 times and be less familiar with it still. Personally, I don't think you need to be even a quarter done with the jouyou kanji before you start reading and learning new ones through actual use, let alone finish them before vocabulary/the core which I wouldn't put off to begin with. Learning through practice is much better than through a contextless list.
How many on/kun do you have per kanji? We don't generally have multiple readings of han4zi4.
Discluding some irregular/uncommon readings, more often than not characters don't have multiple on or kun readings and there's lots with just an on reading and no kun too. My Anki cards list 375/1840 as having a 2+ readings of either type. I can't practically search for them separately because of how I formatted them. 生, an outlier character known for having many readings, has 2 on and 7 kun which are commonly used, I think.
Of course I believe in reading material while you're learning but you have to do a lot less frustrating looking up every word for every word you don't know if you already know the word. If you don't know the word you're still going to have to look it up and that will be referenced in memory when you encounter them in the Core. With isolated kanji you're learning kanji, not knowing most of the words, and looking up every word you haven't encountered several times before. Just seems really inefficient.
Don't pretend to be me, ethnic railroad builder.
I find it easier to learn a kanji + key word then pick up on readings through the vocab. When I tried to just go straight to core/vocab I had a lot of trouble retaining anything because I couldn't remember both the readings and meaning at the same time.
You can set up anki to have furigana that makes it visually easier to recognize the pattern.
375/1840 = 20%
Quite annoyingly high. That's one big reason I never want to learn Japanese despite my infinite love for Oreimo (including Ending). The other one is the use of kanji itself. If only Japanese people wrote in Hepburn Romanization, it would be easier.
Yes, we built the longest railway tracks in a country and have high speed train networks.
I've narrowed down that Chinese poster isn't Chinese-American and just straight up Chinese.
Still, it's not like that 20% are all like 生, they're mostly just one, maybe two extra readings. Not too bad at all, as far as I'm concerned. Kanji is intimidating as a beginner but it's difficulty is greatly overstated. Once you get used to it, it can actually be nice. I quite like it for skim-reading.
Irregular readings are common.
Do you have this problem in Chink?
下手：しもて lower part; lower direction;
下手：したて humble position; inferior; underarm grip
大人気:だいにんき great popularity
生地：きじ cloth / fabric
大家:たいけ distinguished family
お札:おさつ note (currency)
I could go on and on, this is only scratching the surface. There are a ton of words written identically, but with distinct pronunciations and meanings. The only way to understand which is intended is through context.
I'm about to do the last Heisig katakana lesson. So far I'm not as impressed with this one as I was with the hiragana book. This one has too much "can't you feel how these strokes are similar to the hiragana even though they look nothing alike?" stuff in it instead of the mnemonic imagery.
My goodness! You nip learners are really masochists. To answer you, no. We do not have this problem in Chinese. Barring very few exceptions called 多音字 (duōyīnzì), a 汉字 (hànzì) will ALWAYS be pronounced in the SAME way REGARDLESS of the context.
However, when you combine multiple hànzìs to make a word. the meaning might drift a little bit to point to the meaning of the whole word. But that is so intuitive that you can guess the meaning of the whole word by knowing the meanings of the component hànzìs.
外 - wài - Outside
国 - guó - Country
外国 - wàiguó - Foreign country
The meaning of this word never changes no matter what the context is.
外国人 - wàiguórén - Foreigner
If we take one of your words,
大 - dà - big
家 - jiā - home/family
大家 - dàjiā - people (big family)
This always means people around you, or the people in your society.
>I could go on and on, this is only scratching the surface. There are a ton of words written identically, but with distinct pronunciations and meanings. The only way to understand which is intended is through context.
Hmm. Very confusing indeed. And I was hoping they will use Hepburn and scrap kanji altogether.
My love for Kirino is not big to overcome these difficulties. I have failed her.
Now I know my kana. Maybe I eas tii harsh in Heisig, Katakana seemed way easier, even with the smiliar chatacters.
So, how many years should it take to grind the 2k out of the anki deck? I just started, and I'm feeling pretty retarded.
Maybe I am retarded. That second sentence was supposed to read:
>Maybe I was too harsh on Heisig.
Also I got anthy working. Now I can input in ひらがな and カタカ. I can also do ＦＵＬＬ ＷＩＤＴＨ without using an online convertor. This. is. awesome.
Anybody learning kana and kanji outside of context is insane. Does anyone here seriously just sit down with an anki deck without anything to reinforce it?
I make my own flashcards. I do this because it is organic, the Japanese I'm trying to consume is above my current level, so that will naturally introduce new words and new kanji. New words and new kanji get made into new flash cards. I do work my flash card deck, but then I also go back and re-read the source again. And again. Until it clicks and reads naturally. But the cards come from the material, and working the deck reinforces real world Japanese. Bonus points for having to write out hand written Japanese and then go back and read hand written Japanese as well.
If you are serious about learning Japanese, you need a good source to consume it from. There should be a natural desire to learn because you're watching anime in Japanese, trying to read gaming news, something, anything, that is real deal Japanese written by native speakers.
So what do you do until you get good enough to start reading children's books?
Didn't mean to imply otherwise, I meant irregular and uncommon. I don't think it's important to include the irregulars as they're generally limited to a single specific word or word group. I tend to think of them less as readings for a single kanji, and more as readings for kanji combinations. After all, I don't think even dictionaries delineate which part of the readings pertain to each character for words like 氷柱 like they do for words with more standard readings. I'm pretty sure there's a few words with more kanji than mora even, though I can't think of an example off the top of my head.
I think that's why everyone eventually tells you to make your own mining deck. I should get around to that.
>So what do you do until you get good enough to start reading children's books?
There is a "chicken and the egg" problem here. You don't know enough Japanese to begin consuming J-media, so you don't consume J-media until you've brushed up on your Japanese. But sitting down and memorizing Japanese outside of some way to consume it is mindless and boring. It's an intimidating hump to get over for the beginner.
You've got two options: either slog through the material you've got or hope to study enough Japanese from another source to then come back to your kid's story, hoping that you covered the right vocab and grammar. I, personally, would recommend the slog. There's a couple reasons for this approach: 1, it is difficult and challenging, which means it will help your brain hold on to it. 2, it is a good preparation for what you'll be doing for the rest of your Japanese studies for years: attempt to consume, reach a stumbling block, find some way over/around/through your stumbling block. 3, it is natural, organic learning and is self-fulfilling. What I mean by that is, if you actually sat down and memorized 2000 kanji outside of context…so what? Would anyone be impressed by that, including yourself? But damn, that first time you get through a kid's book, or a simple anime like Tonari no Totoro in Japanese and without subtitles…I mean, jeez, it's almost addicting how accomplished it can make you feel.
There's no reason to be so polite to him and I put $20 on it he has.
>start translating shit
>study kanji if I feel like to
That's how I've been doing it.
I was trying to keep it at the 101 level for my fellow anon 学生。
$20 on I have what? He gave a nice thought out answer that I appreciate.
Read the Japanese if you can.
Oh he was talking to chink anon. Reddit spacing is a stupid meme. It's ok to leave a space between actual paragraphs.
I'm not chink anon, but I totally would if given the opportunity
Are you weebs discussing about me? Let's see.
Hmm. Missed this post. Learn to use paragraphs.
Chinese person one anon? What is that? Just say 中国anon
I cannot understand what you are saying there bud. Something to do with dog and food? Well, my dog eats meat. So you don't have to worry about that. I am not like those crazy vegans who starve their pets.
Fattening the dog up I see.
Tibetan Mastiff. Weighs more than me. Eats from my hand.
So I'm grinding the anki deck, and I just got to 人. It says the hiragana is ひと and looking up the pronounciation online days it's pronounced /hito/, but I swear the lady is saying しと. Is this a mistake? Am I having auditory hallucinations?
yes. It is hito. Don't know how to write it in kana.
You should at least learn kana, ethnic railroad builder. It will take you a week.
That's true. That's exactly what they are.
A week if you take your sweet time and practice excessively.
人 is read "ひと" for sure, 100%. It is also read "じん" in some contexts as well, such as when I used it earlier, 中国人 "ちゅうごくじん". The other common reading would be "にん", when used as a counter for people. "三人、四人" would be "さんにん、よんにん" etc.
>Am I having auditory hallucinations?
Yes. Can you link your online pronunciation?
It's the core2k/6k deck in the neocities rsource. She totally says /shto/
Ok, I bothered to install Anki (damn, it's been a minute and this program has come a long way) and the core 2k/6k deck, and I looked up hito. I can see why you hear the "sh" at the beginning of the sample, but she does says "hito". Are you wearing decent headphones?
It is quite a bit more clear when she reads the sentence: 彼かれは優やさしい人ひとです
I used to go to a japanese course here and the teacher also pronounced hito as shito.
Could be a common slur but that's just a guess as I've always though of it as hito.
It's likely just a case of not everybody pronouncing everything with perfect inflection at all times. Some things can especially sound off to those whose ear isn't used to the hearing the language yet and it takes practice. Sometimes it will be a good sharp H sound, but maybe depending on the prior or following word or person it will come out kind of whispy like a SH sound. Just think of it as being similar to the commonly silent U in です or other such occurrences.
Any useful applications for iOS? I’m sorry.
Is there not.an Anki version for iOS? I have Android, so I have it sync with my desktop, which I actually do most of my studying on.
New word for today:
(noun) commodity; article of commerce; goods; stock; merchandise
It would be cool if we could do a word of they day type thing. I don't know if there's anyone here that both gives a shit and would be willing to do something like that. Also I guess they would have to already have a decent knowledge of Japanese. I do not have that knowledge yet. I' haven't even been grinding anki for a week yet.
Yeah I've got decent headphones. She does it even more clearly for 一つ (ひとつ). She clearly pronouces it /shtotsu/.
Word of the day:
What does the hivemind think of learning the radicals? I'm just learning the kanji as I grind vocab, but I saw a youtube video on radicals, and it seems interesting. I kind of want to learn them, even if its more academic and not expressly for learning kanji.
You rock, bro
If you switch the kanji, you get:
which still means: (noun) Father!
They help with learning kanji and a lot of Japanese to Japanese dictionaries will be listed by radical so overall learning them makes things a lot easier for about the same amount of time you put into learning the kana.
show me your handwriting
That's two different people. I'm the second one. My handwriting is non-existent for kanji. The only reason I know 親父 is because I heard someone say it in an anime, and couldn't quite understand the pronunciation, so I looked it up. As far as learning Japanese goes, I'm just starting. 100% noob.
Why are you even here, chink?
skip the middleman and learn French
So when I grind the anki deck, should I be trying to finish all the cards every day? That's what I've been doing, and it's taking about an hour and a half the past few days. Does that sound about right?
I, personally, find them interesting and would recommend their study only to anons who naturally are attracted to them. You're kanji studies will improve automatically, but it is only another chore if you aren't already interested in them.
How many new cards are you getting a day? Hour and a half depends on how new you are and how many new cards you are attempting each day.
WORD OF THE DAY
(noun) commodity; article of commerce; goods; stock; merchandise;
Sorry for the double post but I thought my fellow anons might appriciate the stroke order on 商 there, it is a little weird and hard to see:
I would aim to spend less time in Anki per day personally. Whether that means lowering your new cards, streamlining your study methods to be more efficient, or whatever it takes. It's good to study that much daily, of course, but all in Anki? Not really, I say. You'll likely grow sick of it doing so much and you want to be doing other things like reading grammar textbooks too. Once your past the basics stage, you won't want to have to trudge through an hour and a half of Anki reviews before you can start your reading practice for the day.
>should I be trying to finish all the cards every day?
Forgot to address this part, which is yes, you should. Anki's goal is to show you the cards at optimal times for memorization, before you forget them, so falling behind that schedule isn't desirable. It's kind of the whole point of the spaced repetition system.
Good to know. I'll keep grinding.
Should the spelling be 中獄人 instead since the chink adopted social credit system now. It's the same pronunciation anyway. Thank goodness I still believe in libertarian.
Not the ethnic railroad builder but you would not have a good time in Japan as a libertarian.
kek, kanji jokes.
WORD OF THE DAY
(noun) president (of a nation or company); chief executive;
<Thank goodness I still believe in libertarian.
>thank goodness I'm still delusional
and 品質 is the quality of those goods.
教える - to teach
The Kanji depicts being with a stick among kids, -> teaching.
Yes, and the expats will make fun of me in r/japancirclejerk for learning something that I won't be able to use in reality.
I think shito means shit human. shit + hito = shito
Give it back, LaTron
In Chinese it is very helpful. So you should know that it will be helpful for kanji too.
Haw, haw. Very funny. But they are pronounced differently.
Only if he can gaijinsmash, he can be libertarian there.
Learning the kana takes a few hours. Yeah, you should practice for a few days to solidify your memory, but it's very easy.
Damnit guys, this bitch on the itazuraneko core2k/6k deck is saying shit wrong again, I swear. This time she's pronouncing 動く (うごく) as /umoku/ instead of /ugoku/. It's definitely not my headphones. Someone with the anki deck please check and tell me I'm not having auditory hallucinations.
Wow, yeah, that one is fucked. The hito/shito debate was there for me, she pushes more air through her "h" sound than we do in English, but that's normal for Japanese and just takes getting used to. But this? That's clearly "umoku" both times. You're right on that one, anon. Weird.
I can't attach an mp3, so go here:
THAT is the correct pronunciation.
This is my first attempt at a Japanese sentence. Anki is taking ages today.
What did I fuck up?
Nothing, which is why I said "ちゃんとできましたよ。"
WORD OF THE DAY
(adv,vs) (1) (on-mim) diligently; seriously; earnestly; reliably; steadily; legitimately;
(2) (on-mim) perfectly; properly; exactly; orderly; punctually; regularly;
(3) (on-mim) sufficiently; satisfactorily;
(4) (on-mim) quickly;
"adv" - adverb (fukushi)
"vs" - noun or participle which takes the aux. verb suru
"on-mim" - onomatopoeic or mimetic word
So what I said was "You were able to do it properly, yo!"
>Nothing, which is why I said "ちゃんとできましたよ。"
Ugh. I forgot Japanese is topical and blindly plugged it into google, which without knowing the topic, made the subject "I." At least I figured it out before I got to the bottom of the post where you spoonfed me. I guess that's a babystep.
Also, turns out anki didn't take much longer than usual, I just had interruptions. Had a touch of the runs.
Post the sound clip. I bet you're hearing wrong for sure.
It's a different kind of hissing sound, equivalent to German CH, not English SH.
It's buried in the 2K/6K deck. You can search for it, preview it, and play the audio. I'm anon #2 that hears it, and this ain't my first rodeo.
I don't use that deck. I already know Japanese.
>I don't use that deck. I already know Japanese.
You two are having auditory hallucinations.
Ctrl+F for it. There is another instance of it in the core pronounced no differently that I'm not bothering with.
Can someone translate this?
You might have more luck in the translation thread. From what I can tell, the kid is saying something about eating shaved ice. Nice ara, though.
>Can someone translate this?
Mama~. Let's also eat the shaved ice together Mama.
It's full of delicious milk to take.
…It's good. Mama ate it spontaneously
Looks like Mama also is wearing the milk spontaneously.
>Looks like Mama also is wearing the milk spontaneously.
kek is that part of the text or did you make that up?
That's what she said man. ちゃって has a double entendre of did it completely and spontaneously so it means she's both wearing the milk on her face completely and spontaneously. It's only slightly clever.
She's also talking about herself in the third person because she's talking to a child so it's not the kid calling her mama in the second two lines.
Oh I forgot 一人 so that changes the third line to
…It's good. Mama ate it alone spontaneously.
Fuck. I've got 149 words due in anki plus 20 new ones. I really don't want to go slower than recommended, but I'm worried that I'm having trouble storing all this shit in my head for more than a few minutes. There's some words I've been repeating almost everyday since I started two weeks ago that I can't seem to get into my thick skull. Luckily I only have 29 cards due tomorrow, but I'm sure that will skyrocket after I have to relearn a shitload of cards today.
Is anyone familiar enough with anki to look at my stats pdf and tell me whether or not I'm retarded?
Chinese here. Have you guys used kanjidamage? I wonder what it does with the kanji. Like if you use it will you get damage?
Do the Japanese generally use larger fonts than we do? Some of the more complicated kanji are impossible to read at the usual text size I use for English.
20 new words is the Anki default, but I wouldn't recommend it. Especially when you're dealing with all your other beginner stuff like grammar. Starting low and slowly raising it to a level you're comfortable with is best.
Note the following spacing, they're separate sentences. He's presenting it to her, like "Look, shaved ice! You eat it with me too, Mama!"
とっても=とても. It's covered with plenty of milk and it's really yummy.
It's alright, if you eat it all yourself. Note you could say 一人で食べちゃってもいいのよ to essentially mean the same thing. There's nothing spontaneous occurring, your idea of してしまう・ちゃう is wrong in that sense. In some cases it might indicate the outcome was undesired or something.
…since Mama was also covered in plenty of milk. The もらう indicates her as the recipient of ミルクかかって again in a non-spontaneous manner. The から indicates the prior as a reason essentially. ～もらっちゃったから一人で食べちゃってもいいのよ.
I've wondered about that too. Between the small font size and their tiny cluttered website designs, I wonder if they use computer screens with larger pixels, or make use of on-screen magnifiers, or something like that.
Got a question about pic related. It's an end card from a short, silent, animated film (Chagama Ondo, 1935) but it spells オハリ instead of the usual 終わり (おわり). Does this わ/ハ substitution have something to do with how は is pronounced like わ when used as a topic particle?
歴史的仮名遣い. Back in the day things weren't always pronounced the way they're spelled. It's still pronounced おわり it was just spelled that way. いう was spelled いふ, つかい was spelled つかひ. Be glad you're learning in the more straight-forward modern day basically.
Can someone explain the difference in intonation between うん and ううん to me? I'm trying to find some youtube videos on it, but I guess I'm not searching right.
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
I don't think this is a native speaker, but this is a decent example of the intonation. ううん is kinda like the "I dunno" sound we make in English. Both うん and ううん are almost always accompanied by head nodding or head shaking, respectively.
>ŋ as 'm'.
Yeah, it's 'ŋ' not 'm'.
In standard Japanese (the variety you'll hear on NHK) /g/ is pronounced as g only at the beginning of a word. At any other position, it's pronounced 'ŋ'. Have a listen. Other varieties may use strictly 'g', may scramble them arbitrarily, or may have 'ŋ' as distinct phoneme.
That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks. I knew it was something like how uh–huh and uh-uh are pretty much the same in English, but the intonation is what determines whether it's yes or no.
Thanks, that helped a lot.
Go slower, retard. You're supposed to memorize this shit, not sprint through it.
I recommend getting into the habit of repeating the stuff you didn't get right in the last 3-5 days every day in the evening before going to sleep.
That's already when I study, and pretty much the only time I have to study most days since I work long hours.
>20 new words is the Anki default, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Giving grammar more priority anyway. Will 10 a day do?
I think it's sufficient. It's all on you what you think you can reasonably handle.
I started with 10 but dialed it back down to 5 recently since I was confusing words and reviews were starting to pile up. There's no need to keep it at a set number, just adjust it if it's too easy or hard.
I've kept mine at 20. Yeah I'm doing cards for two hours a day, but it's more productive than what I would be doing otherwise. i.e. masturbating.
Masturbation is like the easiest way to remain productive when it comes to learning Japanese. I went from beginner to upper-intermediate, or whatever it is that I might be, in no small part through eroge.
Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I will dial back on the Anki so I can work on grammar more so I can get gud at reading/playing untranslated games. Any eroge you recommend? My tastes are fairly vanilla.
I hope I used お願い properly. I use it to mean, "want."
Onegai is mainly used as a request of someone so you would use this sentence when you're talking to a girl with big tits. Not really. Don't actually say this to anyone. 志望する would be more in line with what you're trying to say but it could also mean you want to have big full tits.
I guess instead I'll say:
I couldn't figure out how to get anthy to print the kanji for onna, so I did jyo since it's the same kanji. I think anthy is trying to turn me into a lolicon.
I'm something of a degenerate myself so I probably can't recommend too much. You could maybe try games by Sol-fa-soft for some short VNs if you're okay with lolicon. I prefer RPGs and I could recommend something like ダンジョンタウン but if you play it together with the add-on content you might be looking at 100+ hours in a single game if your reading speed is slower. A lot of doujin eroRPG are made with RPGmaker or WolfRPG such as 限界!？お兄ちゃん シスタートラベル (no incest in spite of suggesting title) which is a not bad vanilla one or 魔界洞ルル・ファレア ～倒して、犯して、嫁にする!～ which is a fun puzzle game.
しぼう (noun) fat; grease; blubber; lard; suet
Boobs are sacks of fat, sure, but that doesn't mean you fat them.
Why not go with the simpler 「おっぱいが一杯ほしい。」? Just like English, a male saying "I want boobs" should be correctly assumed to mean you want boobs (to play with) and not that you want boobs (to have, like you're some crazy tranny freak).
Why are flat chested girls so rude?